Every weekday from 3 to 6 p.m., adjust your radio dial to 730 AM in Memphis and you’ll get two ears full of The Chris Vernon Show on Fox Sports Radio.     Vernon’s show started on 730 in August 2005. Since then, it has become a fixture in drive-time listening. The Chris Vernon Show was named Best Sports Show and Best Radio Talk Show in the 2007 edition of the Memphis Flyer’s Best of Memphis reader poll. Vernon himself was voted Best Radio Personality.

I sat down with Vernon and the station’s general manager, Harry Long, to find out more about the business of radio. 730 KQPN is owned by the Salt Lake City-based Simmons Media Group. I was interested in the ad spots Vernon does on his show for local businesses such as the Smile Center and dentist Mehdi Sadeghi, Breakaway Running, restaurants Amerigo, Moe’s Southwest Grill, and Lenny’s Sub Shop, new music venue Minglewood Hall, and luxury carmaker Lexus, among many others. How did these sponsors come to be, how involved is the on-air personality in the sales process, and what are the ethics involved in being a pitch man and a radio host?

I prepared a long list of questions to ask Vernon. I should’ve known better. He’s a professional talker. This article is technically a Q & A. There are a lot more A’s. Easiest interview I ever did. Knowing already the intent of my story, Vernon started the interview before I even got to my first Q. He begins with how he gets some of his sponsors.

Chris Vernon: It works much better with listeners. If I can ever meet somebody [at a business] that listens, I’m one step ahead. Because they get it. They’re familiar with what we’ve done with other clients. Most of the listeners know how this show can be advantageous for them to advertise on. Because they’ve used the sponsors themselves, so they get it. My audience is, number-one, extremely loyal, and number-two, impressionable.

Harry Long: Because we cater to the younger crowd. It’s advantageous to the advertiser. If you get a customer through us, you’ve probably got a customer for 20 or 30 years.

Vernon: People that listen to me aren’t typically set in their ways. I try to think of the listeners as me, Harry, Roser [Jon, the show’s producer and station’s assistant program director] — I think we’re surrounded by people that we’re trying to broadcast to. When someone comes to us. We can ask each other, would you do this?

On a Friday night I go home, and if my wife and I are going to go out to dinner, we have not made up our minds, we have not set reservations, we have not made plans. Then, that’s where I hope I can come in on the radio. Hopefully, [a listener] will go to, let’s say, Amerigo. They were going to go out to eat somewhere, so they might as well go what they know. I hope that’s why it can be effective, that our audience is a lot easier to broadcast sponsors to. I hope.

MBQ: When you first started out, did you see another radio host doing sales and say to yourself, that’s the thing I need to be doing?

Vernon: When I started to do sales, the company [Vernon’s former employer, AM 560 WHBQ] came to me and said they were going to be making cuts. They asked if I wanted to sell. But I just wanted to be on the radio. So, I got up in the morning, I put on a suit, I went into work, I said “Hello! Off to do sales calls!” —  went back home, took off my suit, got in my pajamas, and played Madden [the football videogame] all day. After about two or three weeks, my conscience caught up with me.

But I really wanted to do radio. Alright, I’m going to do this where I own my own show, and I’m going to get a sponsor behind it. And that’s when I realized that you’ve gotta have money tied to you.

The reason 730 pulled me away from 560 was that the guy who used to be at 560 was now going to be running 730, and he knew I could make him money. He knew that I could bring sponsors with me. I had money attached to me. People in this market have different kinds of deals. My hope was always to make a salary. At 56, I was doing my own thing, selling my own sponsorships. I was getting paid by the sponsors, I was not getting paid by the station. And then I left to take a job where I was getting paid by the station, and I still to this day am getting paid. They pay me really well because they know that there is a potential to make money off this thing, and that I will work to make them money.

I went through that first time where I wanted to be on the radio but was good at selling, and so they moved me to sales. I moved to middays because they were able to get rid of hosts that they didn’t lose one sponsor over. I saw that it’s not about being better, necessarily. It’s about how much money will a company lose? Every radio personality, that’s the only question, to me, that they need to ask themselves. Nobody cares about your talent. If they fire you, will they lose money?

Long: Which is often a decision that’s made far away.

Vernon: I think that is the only way you are safe in radio. I am not completely safe, but I am safe in the fact that if something ever happened here, I could go find another job in this city, simply because nobody in this town is going to turn down the advertising money that I bring with me. Nobody. Not one single station can afford to do it. So I may not be the best. I like to think that the show is pretty good and that we work as hard as we possibly can to put on a good show, but I understand that that’s not what it’s about. It does not matter how good a show is, it matters how profitable a show is.

Long: And we wish it wasn’t that way.

Vernon: This isn’t the fun side of radio. This is the reality of radio.

I always get people questioning me, asking me, “When so and so station fired so and so, how could they do that?” Well, here’s how they did it: They fired the guy, and it didn’t cost them anything to do it. You are either making your company money, or you are an expense. Period.

From my standpoint, in talk radio, on AM radio, I never want to be dependent on a salesperson. I never want to put my job and my career in a salesperson’s hands again. That’s not happening. There will be money attached to me that makes me valuable. Because that’s all that makes you valuable.

A lot of radio personalities get paid a lot of money and they do extremely good work, and the salespeople go out and sell them. And I don’t blame them. But I refuse to have that in anybody else’s hands. It’s not that that I don’t trust our sales people.

MBQ: Although they could be at home playing Madden right now.

Vernon: They could. Who knows? But it’s too much trust to put in somebody’s hands, because it’s my livelihood on the line.

Here with me, it’s also the reason I do the show by myself. If this show isn’t good, it’s because of me. If it’s good, it’s because of me. If this show doesn’t sell, it’s because of me. If it does, it’s because of me. Period.
If I am willing to make the sales calls and go and talk to the clients — frankly, they turn out to be better sponsors for longer term. They stick with you, they’re very loyal, and I like having that relationship with people involved in the show.

You work harder for people you know. That is a major thing with me. I do this show every day from 3 to 6, and if my sponsors don’t do well because of the situation that I have created, I take that personally. I think that creates the most effective environment for advertising. I really believe that advertising with this show is as good as you can do in radio. I take it personally upon myself. This isn’t just money to me. These are people who I’ve become friends with, who I talk to all the time, and these are people who, I don’t do well unless they do well. And we have an avenue to put together a persuasive message.

It’s a long way of saying I did this for my own survival in radio. Because of what I’ve found is that Simmons Media has taken care of me, and I’ve made much more money than I could have ever imagined when I was starting out because I’ve made myself valuable. It’s not because I’m great. It’s because I make somebody money.

When I go talk to clients, they say, “You sell?” Why didn’t I send a salesperson out? We started this show grassroots, and it’s a different breed. I like working with the clients, I like making the commission off the sale, and I like knowing these clients extremely well. I suppose to some people it might be, I guess, humiliating, if they feel they had to go out and sell. I think the ego comes into play. Here, in our situation — I might feel differently if I was at a bigger station — but it’s everybody’s job here. I take this station very personally. This station took a chance on me, and I’m going to do everything I can to make it money.
We’ll work as hard as we can to do the show, and that comes first, but in terms of the sales stuff, everybody’s got to pull the rope. Otherwise, people are going to get fired.

MBQ: How do you work with the sales staff?

Vernon: I work hand in hand with the sales manager [Rich Richardson]. That’s been the beauty of all of this. This, to me, is a dream situation. Right now, I work at a station where everybody in this building has two common goals: to make this station money and to make The Chris Vernon Show the best it can possibly be.

Long: There are no territorial issues at play.

Vernon: The only competition is us versus the spreadsheet. We’re not looking at another station. It’s us versus the spreadsheet. I think that’s uncommon. We don’t have a big enough operation for us to not work together. That’s a credit to Harry, and everybody understands that we have these common goals, and everybody here has sacrificed.

Right now we have the full backing of a great company that believes in all of us, and we’re young. We are the youngest core group, I would say, of any radio station, possibly, in America. And we have been given an assignment to make this station profitable. The fact that we’ve been here more than three years, there’s probably nothing I’ll do in my radio career that will ever be more fun or make me more proud than what’s gone on here.

The idea that we’re sitting here doing this interview on Beale Street, in possibly the nicest radio studios in all of Memphis, at a station that’s been here three years when we started off with 250 watts, a trailer, and virtually no listeners — you can’t beat that, man. That’s because people worked hard.

I heard it all: Memphis can’t support two stations, that signal’s horrible, everything that was said. Well, here we are, we’re about to go into year number four, and we’ve somehow made it. And now we’ve just got to figure out how to make this thing … a billion dollars. [Vernon laughs.]

Simmons Media is out of Salt Lake City. They have created this environment where everybody doesn’t feel like they’re competing. The people in St. Louis and Austin are on our side. We’re competing with a number that we need to make. That’s the number that we are up against. We go into 2009 with a budget, and this is how much Simmons Media and the stockholders and Goldman Sachs, who is a backer of Simmons Media, this is what they expect to do in Memphis. If we don’t do it, then people start getting cut.

That’s the way business works. Full circle: How do I secure myself from being cut? That’s the lesson I learned early, when I was making $2,000 a month. Why are you cutting me? I’m at every press conference! I work harder than anyone at the —

It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter how hard you work. That is a cold reality. And at the end of the day, when the station was losing money, they looked at the spreadsheet, they saw, “Chris Vernon, $2,000,” and it was an expense. They can do without hard work and without talent. They can. Every station. They can do without those things and they’re still going to be alright. They cannot do without money.
I take great joy in it. To me, the advertisers that sign that dotted line, it means they believe in this show. And it’s all I got. Outside of my family, this show is the most important thing to me. And that’s why it becomes personal. So I want to do my best to ensure that they’ve done right by believing in the show.

MBQ: Who writes the ad copy?

Vernon: Just depends. Typically, whoever sold it. Several of the ones you hear on my show, I’ve probably sold them.

Long: We don’t do anything stock when it comes to messaging. That comes a lot from developing the relationship with the client. If you know them, you know their attitude and personality. You’re appealing to guys, so you want to do something to hook in their ear, to push that brand up, so when they’re making that decision about where they want to eat or what they want to do, we have a client that’s in that category. Developing that message has a lot to do with make the right relationship and positioning that message in a manner that the client would approve of.

Vernon: The core message of the sales thing is, every radio personality should ask themselves one question: How much money would this station lose if they fired me? That’s it. I’ve positioned myself to where I know the answer. It’s a necessary evil. It’s what you do.

MBQ: From a distinctly editorial focus, is there any moment where you’re about to say something where you ask yourself, “What are my sponsors going to think about this?”

Vernon: Typically, my sponsors get it, and they’re behind me. We’ve never had a sponsor drop over something I’ve said. My sponsors have taken complaints. But what you’ll find is that most businesses are interested in you helping their business. And if they get calls saying, “I can’t believe that Chris Vernon said this, and you’re spending money on his show, and I’m never gonna shop there again,” there are two messages: The first is, those people are mad because I said something that offended them. The second is, they’re listening. My sponsors have defended me, because I think they know I’m never going to go really overboard.

And most of the sponsors get it. Most of them know me personally … and I think they will defend the freedom of speech. [Laughs.] They’re great Americans that believe in the United States Constitution. Put that in your article: My sponsors are great Americans that believe in the United States Constitution. And I frankly wouldn’t have it any other way.

MBQ: Have you ever checked yourself?

Vernon: No. Roser has said some stuff. [Laughs.] I’ve gotten in trouble a couple times. But I understand profitability and how you make money. I may say words that I regret, when I’ll get caught up. I called [San Antonio Spurs coach] Gregg Popovich a “bona fide prick.” Then I’ll say it and I’ll think to myself, “Ah, I don’t if I should’ve …” But my listeners all perk up and think it’s funny that it slipped. But I’ve never had to use a delay ever.

Long: I dumped you last week.

MBQ: Are there certain sponsors you wouldn’t be able to take on because of ethical conflict, like the Grizzlies or someone you may criticize on the show?

Vernon: Not really. The Tigers and Grizzlies advertise with us to get to our audience. I’ve had this run in before. We had a company [that was mad when] I trashed the World Cup. This guy pulled his sponsorship. So to answer your question, I’ll tell you what I told him. When people spend money with this show or this station, they’re paying for advertising; they’re not paying for my opinion.

That’s why this thing works. I’m not beholden to anybody. I don’t cash a check from the Grizzlies or Tigers, and, to their credit, yes they advertise, but there is no expectation in terms of my opinion.

MBQ: Is there a cap on how many sponsorships you would have on your show?

Vernon: No. We walk talk about anybody or anything. And if you’re reading this article in Memphis Business Quarterly, call me. My direct cell line is …

My number one interest is this show and it sounding good. With that loyalty is that I have a very honest audience who will let me know when it’s too much. I don’t want the advertising on this show to get in the way of the content. And as long as we can accomplish that, we can bring on as many advertisers as we want. The show comes first.

MBQ: When you say on your show, “I went to Amerigo last night,” is that true?

Vernon: If I say it, it’s true. I will not talk about going someplace or being somewhere unless I have. I do eat at Moe’s all the time. I do get all my shoes at Breakaway Running. I do drive a Lexus. But you have to understand, that’s how the advertising began. It began because these were people I was going to. The Lexus I bought after they were already on. But I was a patient of Mehdi, eating at Moe’s, eating at Amerigo before they ever sponsored me. I do go there, and that’s why it becomes so effective. This is real.

MBQ: Is there trade built into the deal? And is it part of the deal that you go there so that you have something to talk about?

Vernon: It is not part of the deal, but I do. It’s not like if I’m eating lunch at Lenny’s it’s a burden. I love Lenny’s. Trade is very small. The deals I sign, trade is usually not included. Unless it is with the local teams, where we trade for tickets. Which is fair. It helps the local teams and it helps us give a chance for our listeners to go to every local sporting event.

MBQ: Is it pretty rare now that you actually have to hit the street drumming up new business?

Vernon: You don’t find me getting up and making sales calls. It happens organically. People call, I meet people, people email. Over the last year, we’ve had more people either ask me or call the station to advertise than in the first two years combined. It’s getting easier. As far as my sales go, they usually come from conversations. I don’t want to have so many clients that I do them a disservice, because I’m not a full-time salesperson. So I handle my clients.

MBQ: So you’ll service your own clients rather than a salesperson doing it?

Vernon: Yeah. I have about 8 to 10 at any point that I deal with personally. Most of which have been with me a long time. It’s not like I’m getting paid for this. I make commission like a salesperson. Maybe not as much, but now I get my salary and commission and talent fees. It’s not like there isn’t a good side to the labor of it. Especially now in this economy, I want to make as much money as I possibly can now, just like everybody. I’ll hit the streets if I have to.

I’m not letting this thing go down because of anybody. I will be the last one to drown. Because I’ll be fighting to make this thing work. I’ll be in a suit Monday morning. And that’s what you’ve got to do. I think that if I can maintain that attitude, it rubs off on everybody here. You’re not going to outwork me. We have this environment where everybody feels the same way and everybody is pulling in the same direction.

Let me go down fighting. I’ve told our company, don’t call us one day and say that this thing isn’t working. Let me know in advance and let me go down fighting. If I lose I lose, but at least I tried.